Postings to the Cohousing-l mailing list about Commonhouses
General Design Descriptions and Issues
The Cascade CoHousing common house (which is still under construction and should be useful before midwinter) is built on 3 levels and has rooms with the follow areas (NB 10 square feet is approximately 9 square meters).
Total area 275
(approx 3025 square feet)
This was as large a building as we could afford to build, but we feel it will be adequate for our needs. We aim to comfortably seat 15 to 20 people in our regular dining area. We will sit more closely or expand the dining area with extra tables on those occasions when we want to seat everyone.
Three of our four children under 4 YO have no trouble dining in this crowded situation, the 4th is a very active child who finds the lack of space limiting. In the common house kitchen we are installing a 4 burner commercial gas stove with one large oven. This will probably be complemented by a convection/microwave oven, and a griller. If we have a need for more burners then we will use single bench top burners on flexible hoses that can be put away when not in use.
Ian Higginbottom Cascade Cohousing Tasmania, Australia
EcoVillage at Ithaca's common house is planned to have about 3600 sf, including about 900 sf of "private" office space. It will have a ground floor & basement (which opens to grade at the back side), and a small loft or mezzanine to be used as a library. Spaces planned are:
Ray Gasser EcoVillage at Ithaca
Sharingwoods Commonhouse is a bit over 2,000 square feet. We are going to do much of the construction work ourselves, which may be a bit of an epic, although we have two contractors in residence to be the straw bosses and expertise. We are about 1/4 done so far. (August 95)
Most the space in the commonhouse is one great room, and there is a small alcove near the kitchen which contains storage, heating and one of two bathrooms.
There are two front entrances to the building, one coming off the main path and another which opens onto the front patio. The front patio is separated from the playground by a garden strip and will be bordered on one side by our kitchen garden. As you walk in the front door (non-patio) the kitchen is in front of you, the kids room to the right and a bathroom to the left.
Our kids space is a half floor (4 feet) below the main floor, near the entrance, so during dinner we will be able to hear the screams but not the giggles (we hope). The bathroom blocks most of the kids room off from the eating space. The kids room has its own door outside into a path to the existing playground. The kitchen is on the same end as the kids room, but above it on the main floor and the scullery is in an adjacent alcove. There is a hole in the wall separating the kids room and kitchen so parents cooking can see the kids. We have built in storage closets for tables and chairs and a small 12X12 basement below the kitchen for deep storage or some other use.
The building has lots of windows, 6 skylights and faces into the existing playground. Our ceiling is made of wooden planks and I suspect we will end up sanding and finishing the plywood subfloor and call it our floor. We are self-funding this building project with loans from community members. We started out with a $2,000 per household assessment to create a pool of money to get started and the total project budget is around $120,000. There are several very large wooden beams across the ceiling and we hope the whole affect is one of lodge-like hominess. On the opposite end of the building from the kitchen is a small woodstove and corner lounge which will be separated from the main eating space by movable partitions which have a bulletin board on one side and bookcase or magazine rack on the other.
There is a long bench along one side of the entry for removing shoes (we would like this to be a no shoe building to help keep it clean) and the other side is a long coat rack and cubbies for internal mail.
Our food service is from a custom made rolling table, allowing access from two lines and we will have rolling carts for dishes as well. The eating space is roughly 25 X 40 feet which we project will hold a maximum of fifteen, six person tables for seating of 90, although we expect regular dinners to be less than that.
Some of this is still on paper and what we actually end up with in the end, since we are building it ourselves, may vary somewhat as we go about construction.
Rob Sandelin Sharingwood
Willie Schreurs writes:
The main question I'd like to consider is: if you had the opportunity to do it over again what would you do differently? What would you leave out, what would you put in that you don't have now? And what would you NOT change because it works well?
Our Common House first floor will include kitchen/dining/pantry, entry/mail, bathroom, sitting room, daycare. The dining room will include a (hopefully) quiet alcove with TV storage (a bit contradictory, but that's where it fit).
Our basement includes laundry, bathroom, mechanical room, and eventually guest, exercise, teen, office areas, as well as probably some sorts of meeting and crafts areas. (~4000sf/floor) There's also a crawl space that a couple people think will make a good brewery. We also plan/dream, down the road to have an outside hottub, as well as greenhouse/workshop/craft shop, community gardens, etc. We haven't moved in yet, and our common house isn't completely finished, but a few problems have already cropped up.
Debbie Behrings Highline Crossing Cohousing
Diane C. Burgoon of the Lake Claire Cohousing Community in Atlanta, Georgia. asked about a synthesized list of commonhouse issues from Cohousing-L.
Kitchen design and equipment advice:
Rob Sandelin Puget Sound Cohousing Network, Sharingwood
COMMENTS FROM EXISTING COMMUNITIES ABOUT THEIR COMMON HOUSE: A SUMMARY
Executive Summary:
I have spoken with, or been contacted by, people from: Muir Commons (MC), Southside Park (SP), Winslow (W), N-Street (NS), Sharingwood (S), Highline Crossing (HC), and Nyland (N).
In my opinion, two major themes have emerged:
NOISE - especially in the dining area
FLEXIBILITY - the ability to modify the function of a room with minimal
reconstruction or expense
Also critical: Placement of the "kid's room" relative to the dining room.
Additional details:
Noise in the dining area appears to be very difficult to control. Deal with as much as possible in design. Some suggestions: acoustic tile, banners from ceiling, quilts on wall, dimmable lighting.
Flexibility is not a term that was used by anyone with whom I spoke, but seems to cover many issues that came up. Two communities (MC, W) have reprogrammed or started to redesign their common house. One group (SP) wanted an expandable common house and regret that it is not, and some others also want more space. Most groups have changed the functions of rooms or moved them around, either because they weren't working right or to deal with changing needs. Nyland didn't finish the basement initially, waiting to see what they wanted to do there first; seemed to work well. The common house is a living building, reflecting the character of the community and changing as the community grows and changes. We *will* change it, so make it easy to do.
Placement of kid's room: It's a balance - "not too close, not too far" -"can hear screams but not giggles." MC moved theirs closer, SP likes their arrangement, across the kitchen from the dining room.
Kitchen:
Dining:
Random Notes:
Willie Schreurs Future Home: Greyrock Commons, Fort Collins, CO
Ray Gasser, EcoVillage at Ithaca asked:
Our energy consultant (and future resident), Greg Thomas, is telling us we may have a problem in the Common House: overheating! We have a lot of solar exposure, the construction is going to be very tight, we'll have a lot of bodies (30 >households), and the stove, refrigerator, and walk-in will be generating BTUs galore.
Has this been a problem with any existing communities? What kinds of ventilation systems do you use? Open Doors? Fans? We'd like to avoid air conditioning if possible, for $$ & energy consumption reasons, but will we need it? Venting of refrigerator heat directly outside?
Ray says nothing about the heating system for the common house... 100% passive solar? Hot water? Forced air? Electric baseboards? Is there any ductwork running around? You say that the construction will be very tight. What, if anything, are you doing about indoor air pollution? The exhalant from 30 families, along with the cooking moisture and smells, HAVE TO be dealt with. You need SOME kind of ventilation just for that, not to mention heat.
Roger Diggle
Office space at EcoVillage is being designed and paid for by those who will use it. Basically we're buying a larger house, and that "larger" part just happens to be in the CH & not contiguous with our living space. We didn't feel that the community should subsidize those of us who need office space outside the home. The architect sent each of us a bill for the additional design time, and we'll pay for the additional construction costs. Each month our "maintenance fees" will probably be a little higher, to pay for heating, etc.
We asked all potential residents "Who wants office space & how much". Then we talked to the town, and agreed that no more than 1/4 of the CH square footage would be private office, no office would be larger than 200 sf, and no office would have more than 2 employees from outside the community.
The office space has a direct connection to the inside of the CH. It's on two levels, and the upper level (ground floor) has an outside entrance. This will be near the offices ot those who have clients coming in (like a therapist and a lawyer). I'm getting a downstairs office, since I never bring in clients (I'm a computer consultant and always go to their place, and once I move up to Ithaca from NJ, I'll do most work with fax/modem/phone).
One spot in the office wing is dedicated to the EcoVillage office, about 75 sf. We're actually building about 150 sf of "not-yet-spoken-for" space because we still have 2 or 3 housing slots open, and want to allow for the possibility that needs of potential joiners can be met, or changing needs of the existing 27/28 can be fulfilled.
Total office space: 900 sf out of 3600 in the Common House. Community doesn't provide any desks, chairs, etc., but the office owners will probably be sharing copiers/faxes & the like.
Ray Gasser, EcoVillage at Ithaca
Our current guest room is about 8x10, with a queen futon and a bedroom-size desk and chair. With the futon folded out, there is no place to sit except in the desk chair. While a suite would be ideal (i.e. a small sleeping area and a separate sitting area), simply having room for a couple of comfortable reading chairs, along with a closet/wardrobe space where clothes could be hung/put away and suitcases could be stored or laid open would be sufficient. The second space could be less specifically designed for guests, more like our current guest room. These sound like design solutions. From the programming perspective, the room should allow guests to have their own space, much like a dedicated guest room in a private home. Specifically, it should allow enough space and privacy to sleep, dress, toilet, bathe, retire for at least short periods, say to read a book or take a nap, and even come back to in the evening for a while before bedtime *so the guests don't HAVE to be in their host's home all the time*. I suppose the bathroom could be one of the regular common house bathrooms, as long as there was a lockable door in the hall separating the bath/guest room from the rest of the common house.
David Hungerford, Muir Commons
So far the rooms haven't been used as much as we expected (only 6 nights last month), but I presume that once
people get used to the option, use will go up. We do charge money for the rooms, to pay for the costs. The costs include utilities; wear and tear on the furnishings, which at some time in the (far, we hope) future will have to be
replaced; paying back the general fund for the original purchase price of the furnishings; ongoing supplies such as soap, toilet paper, cleaning supplies, etc.; and remuneration to a "guestroom manager." This manager takes reservations and oversees clean-up, provision of supplies, damage repair and other such things. The cost of the first night of a stay always includes a $10 "reservation fee" which goes to the manager. In addition, until the debt I mentioned to the general fund is paid off, the rooms cost $20 a night. After the money is paid back, the nightly fee will be $15. There is a lower cost for actual members, many of whom need a room if, for instance, they are not yet residents, are from out of town, and want to attend meetings. Or if they are building their house and have already moved out of their previous residence. Sorry this message is getting long - we have an eleven-page document (yes - this was one instance in which we were stricken with a rare attack of thoroughness) spelling out our whole guestroom system; I would be happy to send it to Judy Baxter or anyone else who would like to see it, as long as they realize that it is just our first stab at things. I've really enjoyed my first week on the list, by the way.
Martha Little, Commons on the Alameda
I'm wondering about people's experience with and plans for common guest rooms. We've heard, I think, that one of the groups with guest rooms in the commons house is finding less usage than expected. We currently have 1 medium size
and one very small guest room in our "Mansion" common space, and they certainly get used, but my sense is (without counting) possibly 4-8 days per quarter. This is, of course, with only 8 households in residence.
Our policy now is that guest space is free to members' friends and family, up to some time limit (I can't remember what that is). We charge people who are needing a place to stay temporarily but not connected to someone. Or, I suppose, Cohousing visitors
Judy Baxter, Monterey Cohousing Community, (MoCoCo)
At Muir Commons we have one small guest room. Outside in the hall hangs a calendar, on which people sign up first-come, first-served. There is no time limit, however, an etiquette has developed around long-term guests (say, more than a week or ten days) which makes it okay for someone to ask if they can have the room for a couple of days, the long-term guests either sleeping on their hosts' sofa or going to a motel. This has worked out fine. We charge nothing (we generally have seen nit-picking about very small costs--furniture wear and tear; utilities--as a greater hassle than benefit. Besides, the common house IS an extension of our own homes, right?), but the hosts are expected to clean the room, wash linens, etc.
We do allow guests who are visiting cohousing rather than any one individual, but I believe we do charge a small fee and limit the time, and of course, residents have first dibs on the room.
In designing it, we made at least three mistakes:
1) it doesn't have a +closet or enough room for sitting space; there's no place to put suitcases etc. except on the floor, and the guest don't really have a place to go to have privacy. Trust me, when your parents visit for 3 weeks, you and they both NEED a place for them to go sometimes.
2) we didn't put a shower in the bathroom next to the guest room. We thought guests would just come to our houses, but that turns into a hassle when all their stuff is at the common house.
3) Although it is remote from activities INSIDE the common house, we inadvertently put it against the main path, across the sidewalk from the children's play structure, so there is traffic just outside the windows and noise in the mornings. We would make it more remote if we could do it over.
We now wish we had another guest room, or another room which could serve as a guest room when there are overlaps.
David Hungerford Muir Commons
I'm a resident of the Commons on the Alameda in Santa Fe, New Mexico. Although we have been in existence (i.e. the first people have lived here) for more than two years, we only started using our three guestrooms in the Common House about two months ago. So everything I'm going to say about our policy may be worthless, since it hasn't been really tested yet. So far the rooms haven't been used as much as we expected (only 6 nights last month), but I presume that once people get used to the option, use will go up. We do charge money for the rooms, to pay for the costs. The costs include utilities; wear and tear on the furnishings, which at some time in the (far, we hope) future will have to be replaced; paying back the general fund for the original purchase price of the furnishings; ongoing supplies such as soap, toilet paper, cleaning supplies, etc.; and remuneration to a "guestroom manager." This manager takes reservations and oversees clean-up, provision of supplies, damage repair and other such things. The cost of the first night of a stay always includes a $10 "reservation fee" which goes to the manager. In addition, until the debt I mentioned to the general fund is paid off, the rooms cost $20 a night. After the money is paid back, the nightly fee will be $15. There is a lower cost for actual members, many of whom need a room if, for instance, they are not yet residents, are from out of town, and want to attend meetings. Or if they are building their house and have already moved out of their previous residence. Sorry this message is getting long - we have an eleven-page document (yes - this was one instance in which we were stricken with a rare attack of thoroughness) spelling out our whole guestroom system; I would be happy to send it to Judy Baxter or anyone else who would like to see it, as long as they realize that it is just our first stab at things. I've really enjoyed my first week on the list, by the way.
Martha Little Alameda on the Commons
Laundry
I have a lot of experience living in apartment and condo complexes with laundry rooms. Whether two washers is enough for 30 households depends on how many people have their own washers and dryers. My guess is that unless the group has explicitly asked people not to have their own machines, some will have them. Carrying laundry back and forth to the common house can be a major hassle during the winter or in bad weather, and some people are not willing to put up with this. My experience in apartment houses where nobody has their own machines and nobody goes to a laundromat is that two washers and two dryers for a 30-unit building is not enough. I would say at least three each. I think this formula would work for cohousing too.
It's a common practice for people in condo and apartment complexes to use two or three machines at the same time. It saves them time, but it's an inconvenience for others who need to use the machines. In some places I have lived, I have had to bring the laundry to the laundry room, leave it there, and come back several times before I could use a machine. I think this problem is due in part to the alienation that exists in most complexes and would be less of an issue in cohousing.
I'm glad to hear that (apparently) the majority of coho communities mentioned in this newsgroup have, or will have, common laundry facilities. It seems that major economies of scale can be realized by doing so, and it also provides an additional opportunity for people to "run into" each other.
Bob Morrison
7 of 26 households have thier own laundry machines (3 common washers/2 common dryers). We also have an outside hanging area with roughly 400 linear feet of laundry line. Davis is very dry and warm most of the year so many people hang their laundry. In Ithaca, two dryers might not be enough. As to types, we originally had 3 used Kenmore/Whirlpool (same guts) washers which broke often enough that we got sick of fixing them--they were like old VWs, easy and inexpensive to repair, but required lots of tender loving care that commonly owned stuff just doesn't get. So we bought a new Maytag and a new Kenmore (as sort of a side by side test). Our laundry repair and fix-it guy warned us afterward that the new Kenmore/Whirlpools have direct drive (as opposed to belt drive) systems, and that when they break, you have to throw them away . . .we'll see--although we did recently replace the 3rd machine with another Maytag. We also looked into commercial machines, and found that the only mechanical difference between commercial and regular machines was the drum (stainless steel); all the guts are otherwise the same. Since the commercials cost almost twice as much, it seemed silly to spend the extra.
Dryers: we use two full-size gas models stacked on a clever, home-built frame--the top one is a Hotpoint (White-Consolidated is the umbrella company, they build under other brand names, too) with the controls moved to the front edge and the lint trap in the doorframe (so they can be reached). These were both purchased used and have never given a day of trouble. Gas dryers are very simple devices.
Energy efficiency notes: gas dryers use much less energy than do electrics, as do gas water heaters. Horizontal axis washers use a whole lot less water (and consequently energy); Whirlpool it shooting to have one on the market within 2 years--right now you have to buy European, and pay a dear price.
David Hungerford, Muir Commons
I imagine when everyone is on site that maybe eight households will have wasing machines in their own houses and maybe no one will have their own dryer. When we designed we thought everone would use the common laundry but it turns out that shear convenience and old habits are hard to beat. We currently have one front loading washer and an electric dryer and we will have space for another machine and dryer if they are needed. The washing machine is a good quality domestic unit and has given no trouble over eighteen months of moderate use.The machines were purchased out of our common house budget.
Ian Higginbottom, Cascade Cohousing
Having worked in a number of food establishments, and at New England Culinary Institute (as an instructor...in computer literacy, but it's fun to put on a resume...;), my major input -- which you've probably already heard -- is STAINLESS STEEL EXTERIORS AND SURFACES for everything above kick-plate level. It really helps cleanup, if you can afford it. It won't rot, you never have to paint or resurface it, it's resistant to dings, and easy to disinfect upon occasion...;)
The problem is, if something disasterous happens to it, you have to replace the whole piece, and the pieces are large because you want to avoid seams. The good thing is, this is standard issue foodservice fittings, so you can probably get trivially prefab to fit your space well enough. You can probably find folks who will do this kind of work under restaurant supply in the yellow pages. There is no replacement for a double stainless steel sink for doing dishes.
Best flooring in the universe, albeit expensive, it's designed to last forever with minimal maintenance -- slate pavers, and a floor drain. That's what I want in our kitchen if we ever build! It's beyond belief how easy slate is to maintain, and with minimal chemicals. It can discolor from grease if you don't keep it sealed, but that's aesthetics more than cleanliness. Problem -- it's cold as hell first thing in the morning in the winter. Nice -- it's cool as anything even when you're doing dishes in a hot kitchen on a warm day.
Shava
At Greyrock we've about finished the design. Obviously we haven't used it yet so I can't make any statements about how well it works, but we have given it a lot of thought. In many ways our design is a lot like Nyland's, but the scullery is a little more separated from the kitchen, in a bay. We've gone with an under-counter dishwasher located under the pot-sink (we'll have a three-holer) drainboard. Over-counter models (pass-through design) might be a little easier to use, but they're real space-hogs since you need clear counter-space (probably stainless steel) on both sides at least the size of the dishwasher racks. Corner models are available which would minimise this a little. Overall cost would probably be higher than an under-counter model. Look ugly too (IMHO).
One thing to consider with an under-counter dishwasher is the weight of your dishes. If one uses restaurant-style dishes the load could be a bit of a strain for some people. We're planning on going with Corelle-ware or something similar, much lighter. Also quite durable. I believe Nyland used something similar (Arcapal(?)).
Willie Schreurs Future Home: Greyrock Commons, Fort Collins, CO
Here is a summary of all the info I got about scullery setups. (Dishwashing stations)
The ergonomics of commercial dishwashers. Steps in the flow of the dishes:
1. The dishes are collected and delivered to the scullery site.
2. Plates are cleaned of large food residue.
3. Plates are placed in rack and slid over to the over head sprayer where remaining food is sprayed off.
4. Wet rack is lifted off counter into dishwasher. Water drips onto floor from the wet rack and onto dish person unless tray is held away from body.
5. Dishwasher cycles (90 seconds)
6. Hot, wet rack is removed from dishwasher. Water drips onto floor from the hot, wet rack and onto dish person unless tray is held away from body.
Over the counter model steps:
4. Wet rack is slid directly into the dishwasher from the spray area.
5. Dishwasher cycles (90 seconds)
6. Hot, wet rack is slid directly out of the dishwasher.
7. Hot wet racks are stored as dishes dry (about 5 minutes) then either unloaded or just left, depending on how many racks you have.
General Conclusions:
Over the counter models which have enough counter space for trays are preferable. Ideal set up is loaded dish racks are never picked up, only slid along a stainless steel, one piece counter top.
Over the counter models are unsightly and slightly louder than under the counter models.
Champion and Hobart are the two largest selling models of commercial dishwashers in the US.
A floor drain in the scullery is essential, especially for under the counter models.
Light weight dishes are essential if you have to lift loaded dish racks.
Slate or tile flooring is easy to clean without chemicals.
The whole place needs to be totally watertight as standing water is common and will damage walls.
Stainless steel countertops come as a unit and are easy to clean and pretty bombproof.
Used dishwashers may not be a good value unless they been reconditioned with new pumps, gaskets, and water heaters.
You can get repair manuals for commercial dishwashers by calling the manufacture. If you buy used, call around about your model for availability of parts first and see how long it takes to get parts. Sometimes this can be weeks.
Typical price for new commercial dishwasher runs around $3,500. Typical used price for reconditioned runs $1,500 to $2,000. Your prices will vary on used gear depending on your local market.
Rob Sandelin Puget Sound Cohousing Network, Sharingwood
Actually, I have a little experience with dishwashers. When I was young which is, granted, a long time ago, I spent summers migrating from folk dance camp to folk dance camp as everyone's dishwasher. This let me attend camps all summer for free, and I washed a lot of dishes.
Folk dance meals are typically communal meals for 60 to 300 people. The over the counter model is far superior to the under the counter model.
Ideally, folks bus their trays, or minions carry them to the dishwasher counter. In front of the "in" side of the dishwasher you place plastic recycling cans. You can pick up a dirty dish with food still on it and knock it sharply against the inside of the plastic can, then immediately put it in the "in" rack of the dishwasher. When the "in" rack is full, you spray it once to knock off any last bits of food, then slide the rack into the washer. Typically, the counter has some stainless steel bars on it that the rack slides along, and a counter underneath the bars so that the water doesn't just spill onto the floor.
As you insert the "in" rack, out comes the "out" rack. If the dishwasher has done its job, the dishes are hot enough that they will dry in the rack in about five minutes. They can then be put away to free up the rack, or just left that way for the next meal if there are enough free racks.
I leave out an "in" rack for late diners. This makes it comfortable for people who want to come by later for coffee or dessert after the designated dishwasher has gone. They just leave their dishes in the "in" rack, which becomes the first load of the next day.
It was fairly effortless to wash all dishes for 300 people for 3 meals a day this way. I could complete the wash from start to finish in about 15 minutes, if the diners were prompt in delivering their dishes.
One camp had an under the counter model. This was a real pain. Not only was there a lot of bending with a heavy load, but it tended to create a mess near the floor. Granted, over the counter models with room for two "in" racks and two "out" racks are larger and uglier than what you find in a standard kitchen. But I find beauty in functionality, especially if it's me doing the work.
Martin Tracy Sharingwood
At Muir Commons in Davis, CA, while average meal attendance is 35-45 out of about 70 people, we are very grateful we planned our kitchen and dining room to accomodate the entire community. While the average meal is less, it is frequently the case (2-3 times per month, or 2-3/20 meals) that almost everyone eats or someone invites a group of guests. We've had some meals with as many as 80 in attendance. If we didn't have a large enough facility to accomodate them all, then we would have to overflow into other rooms or ration meals (first-come, first-served?). Either option seems unacceptable to me. When we were planning the Common House, the idea of making the dining room large enough for only the average came up as a cost-cutting option, but Chuck (Durrett) said we'd be very sorry. I think he's right on that point. Remember, the experience of eating meals as a community is deeply affected by the built environment. If you want limited meals participation, build a small dining room. If you want people to avoid cooking, then make it difficult by building a small kitchen. If you want to limit the variety of meals, then buy "regular" appliances which can't accomodate more elaborate or more creative meals.
It seems that the challenge is to make a kitchen that functions as a commercial kitchen in terms of ease of preparation and cleanup, space, storage, and hygiene, but which feels like our own home: warm, cozy, inviting. Our kitchen committee, working with Chuck Durrett as a consultant, did a great job, considering we didn't have any other model except the European communities. Ours is large and has all "commercial" appliances, but still retains a homey, non-commercial feel (with a couple of exceptions I'll get to). So, to Monika's question:
Dishwasher: we have a Hobart under counter model with bleach sterilization and pre-heater (so we don't have to keep the hot water at a critter-killing 140 degrees) and three removable racks. It cost $3000 and is worth every penny. It will do a load in under 3 minutes, which means clean-up can be accomplished in a reasonable amount of time. The person who "persons" the dishwashing station loads and rinses the dishes (we've gotten to where we leave out bus tubs (those gray 14x24 plastic tubs) with soapy water so people bus can their own dishes and start them soaking) then loads and swaps racks every 3 minutes. We end up doing between 10 and 15 loads per meal(including cooking paraphernalia). I just don't see how one could use a standard dishwasher for more than 8-10 people.
Sinks: We have a fairly expensive double-deep well sink with one of those spray nozzles (an expensive but indispensable device) hanging over. It has been a problem in that, in an attempt to keep the kitchen as homey as possible, we used a "drop-in" sink in a standard formica-topped 24" deep cabinet. After three years the counter and cabinet are trashed--water damage. The dishwashing area stays wet for long periods of time. We'll be replacing that with a stainless steel sink setup that can hold the dishwasher racks while we spray off the dishes. Fortunately, that area is out of view of the dining room so the visual impact won't be too bad.
Refrigerators: We have a Victory commercial double door (that is, 5 feet wide) fridge with the compressor unit on top (about $3000). We went commercial because standard home refrigerators can't recover (that is, return to the set temperature) fast enough to keep the food safe, at least when there is lots of in and out like there is with ours. We have a registered dietitian in our group whose chosen mission is to make sure we observe proper food hygiene, and she convinced us this was important. We also wanted enough space to store leftovers. While our condiment collection is a bit larger than necessary, it is really nice to be have enough room to buy food in advance, or in bulk. It's also nice to have a place to put the salads or other cold dishes until mealtime. We also have developed a very workable leftover system. People are charged 1/2 price for each meal of leftovers they eat (self-reported on a tally sheet). Most of us snag a container for lunch, or even dinner if a meal isn't scheduled. Our meal cost still averages just over $2/meal, and we very seldom run out of food at meals anymore; people aren't afraid to make too much because the leftovers get eaten. And we couldn't do this if we didn't have room in the fridge. The downside is that the damn thing sounds like a train. We had to move it out of the kitchen into our (fortunately large enough) bulk storage room. We have a small "regular" freezer and use it very little for common stuff. Most of the space in the freezer is taken by vegetables and fruits people put up (for themselves) in the summer, so no one has their own freezer (not that anyone has room). The freezer is an example of a shared tool, like the lawn mower, which has common and private uses.
Stove: We have a Wolf 6-burner restaurant stove and we hate it. In fact, we just installed (where the refrigerator used to be) a "regular" KitchenAid 30" double oven (electric, $1200). The commercial gas oven wouldn't keep a constant temperature and didn't heat evenly inside--many baked meals were late or burned until people just gave up and stopped using it. The new ovens are great. The 30" width (standard width is 24" measured by the opening it fits into) is wide enough inside to handle 2 9x13 casseroles(or one 13x20) per shelf--so we can bake 8 casseroles at once (2 shelves per oven), or bake two different dishes at different temperatures. The Wolf oven is gathering cobwebs. If we had it to do over again, we would probably skip the commercial range, going instead for a high end countertop unit--KitchenAid, GE, Jenn-Air and some others offer 2-burner systems that you can substitute griddles and grills for, and build a counter with 6 burners (3 instead of the normal 2 units)--and of course, the double ovens. To belabor my previous point, just having the ovens has changed our diet; we eat more baked dishes (and breads and rolls and cakes and cookies) because it is easier. I regard this as good, although I've noticed that many waistlines are expanding.
Vent hood: Maybe because we had the Wolf, the city made us put in a huge, ugly, expensive ($3000) commercial vent hood with fire suppression system and elaborate grease drain--as if we were going to grill steaks every night. It is the most obtrusive feature of our kitchen, and makes so much noise it drowns conversations. If anyone currently planning their kitchen can figure out a way to sidestep this monster, do it.
Pots/Pans: Go commercial. Even though $200 sounds like a lot for a 10 qt. stock pot, even the best "regular" stuff like Magnalite and Farberware just doesn't stand up. The handles break, or they seem to require much more attention to keep from burning large volumes of food. Anyone in cohousing who has eaten the inevitable "singed" spaghetti knows exactly what I mean. Go for top quality stainless with thick bottoms. Ours still look like new. Dishes: Commercial dishes don't chip or break as easily, flatware doesn't bend as easily, and both can be replaced easily (patterns are long-lived). And honestly, the stuff is not that much more expensive and the patterns are benign enough that consensus can be reached in just a few meetings(!)
David Hungerford Muir Commons
There are a whole bunch of considerations in creating a well designed, social kitchen A good commonhouse kitchen lies somewhere between a restraunt kitchen and a family kitchen. Churches, community centers, YMCA camps, State park learning centers all offer good and bad examples of community kitchens. Visit several and bring a tape measure to measure counter spaces, etc. Ask people who use those spaces what they like and dislike about the set up. Typically food is prepared by a team of 3-4 so you need to design a food prep area which allows for that number of people to work in a good social environment, where people can see each other and chat as they work. A well placed center island, with a chopping block surface and a small sink can make a good food prep area. Don’t place an island where it block traffic flow too much, be sure it doesn’t block access from sink to stove.
Rob Sandelin Puget Sound Cohousing Network Sharingwood
1-which existing communities have something like that, or which ones have planned one
We (N st.) have a system very like that described.
2-if you have one, what kinds of stuff do you buy? any perishables? how is that handled?
3-roughly how much space (shelf space, etc) do you use for how many households
We have two 18"x36" shelves in a cupboard devoted to this for our 12 houses.
4-how is it working? any suggestions?
Stuart. Staniford-Chen N St. Cohousing
Questions I would ask facing a similar decision:
*Which things are we storing for a long time; which go quickly?
*Are there other things we need more?
David Hungerford, Muir Commons
Joani Blank Doyle St. Cohousing
>1) What materials did you use for counter tops and floors? Would you choose them again?
>5) What do you use for lighting in the kitchen,
>8) Do you have a person designated as the Kitchen Manager?
Not exactly, we have a kitchen committee who split up the functions
>Who handles broken appliances, etc?
Maintenance committee/or whoever stumbles across the problem first
David Hungerford, Muir Commons
Rob Sandelin - Puget Sound Cohousing Network, Sharingwood
In our commonhouse plan Sharingwood also designed the kids space adjacent to the kitchen, although ours is actually down half a floor (4 feet below the level of the main floor). We have currently been doing community dinners for two years now and based on that experience I will comment on your assumptions below:
>1) The kids (say ages 2-8) will tend to play where the adults are. The adults in the common house before dinner, will generally be in or near the kitchen. If the kids room is far away from the kitchen it won't be used.
This is very age and kid dependent. My observation is that 2-4 year olds want to be near adults, 5 and up could care less as long as they are not alone. Our experience is that two or more 5 years olds will play happily in a basement as long as there is something fun to do. A single kid wants company and will want to be near adults if there are no other kids around.
>2) Kids will tend to play where the warm sunlight is. If the kids room is not visually inviting (say, placed on the shady cooler north side), kids won't use this room.
I have not observed this at all in our 10 kids. They play where ever the "action" is. Sunlight has no measurable affect on their play. As a matter of fact, as a parent I am amazed that while I bask in the fall sunshine, my kids are running in the shadows of the Island.
>3) Because the kids room is placed within view of the cooks (but separated by glass) parents with toddlers or pre-toddlers will still be able to effectively participate in the cooking.
This depends on the parents and the toddlers. Our experience shows that kids who make a lot of demands on their parents for attention make cooking miserable and the parents usually work out childcare so they can cook free of distraction. There are times as a cook when you do not want to be distracted by a 2 year old clinging to your leg and frankly, most parents enjoy a break.
>How have other Kids rooms worked (or not worked)?
Our current kids space is 8 x 10, very small, very little to do. We originally filled it with cast off toys and the adults spent several minutes after dinner coaxing the kids to pick up all the toys. We removed most the toys and the kids do fantasy play now, lining up chairs to make trains, last night they wadded up a bunch of the old drawings and stuffed the "treasure" in various nooks and crannies and played find the treasure. Less is more with kids. I would recommend rotating adult supervision and attention to kids activities occasionally. Stories, art projects are good adult lead activities. Having an adult focus the energy every now and again is a great way for elders to have a chance to spend time with the kids and the kids,(our kids anyway) love stories.
One of the problems of having a kids space is that it is usually infinitely more attractive than dinner so your kids take two bites, then run off and play, then come back as you (and all the other kids) are leaving and whine for food. Having a locking door so that no one gets to use the playroom until 20 minutes after dinner starts is a way to get kids to sit at the table for long enough to eat something.
>Is it too small (big)? Ours is 11 x 13 with a corner of stairs/stage
Go to a lawn and measure off 11X13 and put all your kids into it. Add a paper cutout of a desk or two and a bookcase and arrange it around. How does it feel? Imagine 20 kids in that space?
>Is it contiguous to outdoor covered/enclosed space? Ours opens onto a small covered deck and then to the only hard, flat space in the development
Good plan. Having an outdoor spill out is great in the summer, and not bad in the winter either. Kids are loud little things and it is nice to get them out of the house. Of course the 2 and under set will want to have some responsible older kid or adult keeping them from eating slugs and such.
>What time of day is it mostly used?
Our kids space is used from about 6 to 7:30, the dinner hour. We discourage kids from using the space unless their parent is in the commons. We hold childcare for general meetings in houses. There was too much distraction having all the kids so close to the meeting and we hire childcare anyway.
>Is it used for home schooling?, Structured daycare?
In our state (WA) the regulatory requirements for building daycare space are very cumbersome. If we do home schooling in our new commonhouse, we won't tell the state about it. We have left that option open.
Rob Sandelin Sharingwood
Here at Nyland I have experiences very little hanging out in the common house. A few people seem to arrive a bit early for dinners, a few people watch some late night TV a few nights a week and I have spotted people looking through the Sunday paper on occasion.
Why is this so? Well for one people around here are busy so IMHO they don't know much about the concept of hanging out in the first place. Second our common house living room is not really a separate space from the dining room and I feel adds to the lack of cozyness.
Zev (Bill) Paiss Nyland CoHousing
I think our common house is used more than those of some others who have contributed to this thread, and the reason may be that we are physically more compact than many sites. One unit shares a common wall with the CH; my back door is about 30 feet away, and for no one is it more than a 45-second walk.
We're also looser than some coho communities about allowing children in their play room without direct adult supervision. Same for the teens with their upstairs room; and our sitting room is a comfortable place to be, enough separated from the dining room that you can feel cozy.
Small committee meetings usually happen there; a contra dance band rehearses every Wednesday and holds a dance once a month; other music happens sometimes; people hold parties and special events pretty regularly; the neighborhood association meets in the CH every other month; and often the next day's cooks are doing prep work at night.
Nevertheless, the CH is used less than I would have predicted for unstructured hanging out by adults. Pretty rare, except for before and after meals and some weekends. People are busy; they like their private space, too; and an awful lot of us are early-to-bed types, it turns out. Right after we bought our ping pong table, it was out and people were playing a couple nights a week, but the novelty has worn off. A couple times people have announced fairly spontaneous cafe nights or a dance party; turnout was fairly slim; there was a poetry reading last week. It will be interesting to see how all this changes over time.
David Mandel, Southside Park, Sacramento
At Muir Commons, we find that there is not nearly as much 'hanging out' at the CH as we had envisioned, especially in the evenings. We've wondered about this, and have come up with a list of possible contributing factors:
1) demographics--lots of families w/youngsters they don't want to leave alone, or would rather spend family time with.
2) not enough critical mass of singles/child-free couples to make a regular hang-out scene happen. We actually had a single male move out partially because this scene, which never materialized, was part of his vision.
3) our common house was rather "cold" and uninviting, sparse furniture, concrete floors etc. We've warmed it up some, with furniture, wall hangings etc. but . . .
4) nobody has time to hang out anymore (see number 1) Our hanging out tends to happen on weekends, or outside on nice
spring/summer evenings, so its not like we're anti-social.
David Hungerford Muir Commons